So I got a really good email from a friend and I wanted to share it with you. I got permission to post this as a guest blogger. Enjoy!
Wow! Tell me this quote from Gov Gregoire is taken out of context, or I’ll tell you that she is smarter than the City of Duvall, including council and mayor. In today’s Seattle Times, she is quoted as saying “I’m asking, should agencies be gone?” Gov Chris Gregoire said last week “For me, we can’t do everything anymore. I’m going to have to say to the business community, the nonprofits, to communities, ‘If this thing is as important as you are telling me it is, then you have to provide it. We can’t any longer.’”
At a time when the Duvall city council is thinking of new programs, activities and city positions to fund, Gov Gregoire has finally figured out that government can’t fund everything and has to prioritize what services are provided and cut everything else. Obviously the devil is in the details and I’m concerned about how she chooses priorities, but again her quotes in the Seattle Times article offer hope. “Gregorie said she’s taking note of the things people ask for. ‘Should we get out of the business of those things that we never heard a word…should we be funding it?’ When asked for an example, Gregoire said, ‘As hard hitting as this may sound to people I very much respect, we heard nothing about the arts.’” Dare we finally dream of a day that our arts and entertainment not be funded by the government? Unfortunately in the next paragraph Sen Ed Murray is countering that suggestion with “One of the things we know is the arts is a major jobs generator…”
Obviously electeds who are more used to deciding the funding of projects based on who is suggesting the project have a long way to go in learning how to prioritize funding based on needs and not political capital. But at least now I have hope as I read Gov. Gregoire’s thought process “…One of the questions I ask our folks is can someone else do it. And I didn’t necessarily say better. I want all the (privatization) ideas on the table…”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012873178_budget12m.html
As much as I am a fan of the arts, and as much as I dislike Governor Gregoire I find myself agreeing with her in this case. I would prefer to see the government get down to providing the minimum needs and stop everything else.
ReplyDeleteCommenting on this blog is tantamount to debating with the flat earth society. Ralph
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteSo call me silly but did you just say you believe the earth is flat?
Seriously I would like to hear more from your point of view. Please explain your apparent frustration and lets discuss it.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
It just amazes me how the most narrow, unimaginative, and otherwise intellectually limited among us convince themselves that they can run government (and everything else) better than those already doing so. Ralph
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteWhile your comment seems a little cynical and makes many assumptions about others, I can see how you would be concerned about other people's ideas if you didn't know their qualifications.
Would your opinion of the comments change if you knew this person was a formerly elected official, a currently elected official, or a long time government employee?
When you look at a comment that you don't agree with, what qualifications do you use to decide if the opinion is worth listening to?
The thing about the "across the board" cuts that are being proposed is that they are really just a way to buy time for the Democrats. Gregoire will say to all the agencies to cut their budgets, they will take their time and will come back with proposals in a few months. (its a hard process that can not be rushed)
ReplyDeleteBy the time they come back with the budgets then the election will have happened and the Republicans will be in the majority. The Gov. will say that now she wants the input of these newly elected leaders (she will say she is listening to the will of the people) and then by the time they actually get to the budget then she will be able to blame Republicans for all the cuts and she will say she had to do it because she had no choice.
This is a politically motivated stalling tactic. She wants to keep her base happy by not cutting programs and she wants to blame the Republicans for being the mean people who take all these entitlement programs away. A win win for her.
Another example of where she has failed to do her job for the citizens of the state and where she has failed to take responsibility for the situation her party has caused in Washington.
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your point. The blog is primarily about Governor Gregoire having a come-to-Jesus moment and realizing that government can't (and probably shouldn't) fund everything. I think the most enlighting part of her realization is that she seems to now be aware that the private sector is capable of providing some services too. Now I may not be a fan of the governor, but I do recognize that since she is in her second term and was attorney general prior to that, she is well qualified to determine how to run government better than it is currently running.
That said, I'd also like to point out that government is set up "of the people, for the people, by the people" so anyone who meets the definition of "people" is qualified to suggest how to run the government better than it is currently being run.
debbie
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that you believe the current electeds are smarter than you so you won't offer your opinion on how to run government? I assume this also means you recognize that you lack the qualifications to intelligently vote too. If so, I applaud you! I wish more intellectually challenged people like you would refrain from voting!
Doug
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting that we are governed by an elitist class? An aristocracy that knows better than the unwashed masses? I thought that was thrown out with the theory of a flat earth.
Poor Ralph.
ReplyDeleteAs an associate member of the Flat Earth Society I resent Ralph's rude and ill-informed comment! Gwen
ReplyDeleteThe TRULY amazing thing about this blog is that some self-described modern-day incarnation of a Revolutionary War hero can find even three or four loyalists to ramble inanely on any political topic he chooses to throw out and think that they are actually accomplishing something constructive. And Gwen you're just priceless! But I guess I shouldn't be too surprised there's a flat earther in this audience. Ralph
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteDispite your disbelief at this blog I genuinely want to know what you honestly think. So I will ask my question again and we will see if you choose to continue with your current type of diologue or if you actually want to have a discussion. So here it is again:
When you look at a comment that you don't agree with, what qualifications do you use to decide if the opinion is worth listening to?
Thanks
Hey Ralph,
ReplyDeleteBart and I apparently agree with a democrat (Gregoire)which goes against everything Thomas has ever posted on this blog. So which way are you leaning? You agree with Thomas that democrats are wrong or you agree with Bart and me that this democrat is right that government has to prioritize basic services and cut everything else.
Stop arguing about the intelligence of the people stating their opinions and start discussing the issues.
Jill
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteYou're obviously not a lawyer or a professional debater. Stand up for what you believe in; make an argument
Alright everybody, lets give Ralph a chance to answer, if he wants to.
ReplyDeleteI just think this blog provides a forum for the tinfoil hat crowd, particularly on local issues. TP throws out some undocumented drivel--"At a time when the Duvall city council is thinking of new programs, activities and city positions to fund."--and the usual few followers start chanting against their local elected representative. Does any one of them regularly attend council meetings to observe for themselves the process firsthand? Nope, I'm guessing. Much easier to be just a blind follower.
ReplyDeleteNo thoughtful person respects such a narrowly-formed opinion. I think most readers of this blog do so for a laugh. I do. Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteIt appears that you are either unwilling or unable to answer the question I asked you, twice now, about what qualifications you require to assume someone has a valid opinion.
So here are a few more for you to consider.
Do you attend council meetings on a regular basis?
I actually get the recordings and listen to everyone of them. (you can read my synopsis in the River Current News as I write the report for them).
Or we could talk about "undocumented drivel" as you call it. Do you know the makeup of the people who read this blog? Can you document anyone in the "tinfoil hat crowd?"
So lets start with the old adage that those in glass houses should not cast stones.
Then we can move on to an actual beneficial discussion where you can present a relevant point of view and we can discuss it rationally or you can continue to throw up your opinion and your unfounded "drivel" I think was your word.
So here is what I propose. You answer the question about what qualifications a person has to have in order for you to decide if their opinion is worth considering and then we can continue to discuss other issues.
Or, you can continue with the same type of rhetoric and I will simply no longer post your comments.
I want the discussion and an honest look at the issues. If you can not offer that then I will find it somewhere else.
Oh and just so you know I currently get over 1700 hits a month on this blog. That's a lot of tin foil, no matter how you look at it.
Props to Ralph for bringing some life to the blog! Lately I've been getting more comments on my Facebook wall. He really adds interest.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteIn the interest of making this a better blog, can you tell me what it is that you find interesting about Ralph's comments?
I think I clearly answered your question, TP, when I pointed out that opinions made on your blog would be taken more seriously if they were based on direct observation and citizen participation in local policy-making rather than just relying on your general statements as an information source. Now that you've chosen to identify yourself to me, I have a question: aren't you the one who accused the Coucil of violating the state constitution? Second question, if you have the balls to answer it: what makes you a constitutional expert?
ReplyDeleteIn answer to your second question, no, I don't attend the meetings often. But, then, I'm not the one claiming to know what the Council is "thinking" am I? I have spoken with most of the members during the recent campaign seasons and found that those who were elected seemed bright and eager to serve the best interests of Duvall's residents. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteYes I was the one who wrote the article about how it appeared that the city violated the State Constitution. (it may be beneficial for you te reread the article so you can reference it correctly).
The reason the paper decided to run the article is we received emails and documantation from a public records request in which it was stated that some of the action that was taken was not legal. (these are all public record if you would like to review them yourself).
In case you missed the first sentence of the post, I did not write this post. Someone else did. So I am not claiming to know what the council is thinking, my friend was.
I agree that the Council should be given the benefit of the doubt until they act irresponsibly. But the discussion about whether or not they are doing that should be held another time.
I appreciate this new type of comment Ralph. It is much more productive.
So would your opinion of the above post change if you found out that the person who wrote the post was a currently elected official? A formerly elected official? A government employee?
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteAs I re-read my comments I realized that perhaps I could explain one part of it better.
Despite my BA in Law and Justice and the fact that I have taken 5 Constitutional Law classes, I do not consider myself a Constitutional Law expert.
When the information came to us about the City's actions we consulted multiple experts to explain the issues involved. We got assistance from the Washington Coalition for Open Government, the State Auditor and the Attorney General's Office.
After discussing our concerns with all the above, we were confident that we were on solid ground and thus printed the article.
Hopefully this answers your question a little better.
I know who this "Ralph" is - let's not make this blog an online dialogue between one marginal (sorry, 'R') voice and the rest of the community, which has genuine problem-solving, issue-oriented conversation to get done here. It would be nice if 'R' lived in the local area and had some idea of what she is talking about except for being a friend of a council member... People: let's move on. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteRalph - I find it interesting that people who do not share your views were lumped into the 'tin-foil hat' or 'flat earth society', and that you challenged TP on being a 'Constitution expert'. I feel compelled to ask (tongue-in-cheek) what makes you an expert on tin-foil hat crowds and flat-earth societies?
ReplyDeleteIt's easy to see someone who disagrees with something you believe in and make fun of them or assume that they are stupid or crazy. It takes someone with a much higher quality of character to seek to understand why someone might think or feel that way and then determine whether there is any merit to that point of view.
For example, I prefer to minimize the influence and impact that the government has on how I live my life. I have a friend who wanted the government to provide things like food, clothing, housing, a car, fuel, education, computers and laptops, and medical care to her and her daughter so that she wouldn't have to work long hours at a minimum wage job.
She and I have spent many hours discussing why she thinks and feels that way, and why I think and feel the way I do. We still disagree over some areas, but we do understand each other better.
What have you done to understand why people don't trust city, state, or federal governments?
Thomas, Ralph is funny and challenges the blind faith people have in you on this blog. That's what makes him interesting.
ReplyDeleteI like the direction Bart is headed and I think someone (maybe Bart this time?) should do a blog about how much control government should have over our lives and why.
ReplyDeleteBut for this blog, I want to get back to something Ralph said. I don't think it's "undocumented drivel" to state that the city of Duvall is looking for new programs, activities and positions to fund. Let's make a list of what we know of:
1. the sidewalks on 275th
2. The new full time IT position
3. didn't they just recently pay for movie night at some nursery outside city limits?
4. What else?
Jill
I don't think Ralph challenges anything. He hasn't made his case yet.
ReplyDeleteDoug
4. They were discussing a city administrator position awhile back, anyone know if they are still discussing that?
ReplyDeleteI'm pleased that I have prompted some good discussion on the blog.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to respond to anonymous' references to counter my assertion of too much undocumented drivel by TP. I took the time to phone a knowledgable source in local government and ask about the points referenced. 1) Sidewalks on 275th - this is a safety issue for pedestrians on a street that has become a major arterial, and part of the streets and traffic management upgrading under the city's master plan. Most of the cost was paid through state grant. 2) The full-time IT position had been advocated for by Chief Merryman in Council meetings for the past couple of years. I would agree that a part-time position might well have been adequate, but the point here is that it was not proposed or championed by the "city council" as the guest blogger suggested in general. 3) This youth event, supported by the police department, cost all of $200 in left-over local grant money and occurred across the street from the city limits near the high school.
Anonymous, I can understand why you don't risk putting your name behind YOUR undocumented drivel. Ralph
My apologies to Jill for missing to note her name. Jill, you deserve credit for standing behind your words, even though you didn't drill down on the issues. Ralph
ReplyDeleteBart, I actually credit you with being the only regular commenter on this blog to demonstrate thoughtfulness and common sense much of the time (in contrast to, say, Doug, with his vacuous comment following yours). And perhaps it would surprise you to learn that I strongly favor a limited government role as well. But my point of attacking the intellectual rigor of TP, his blog and gullible loyalists is illustrated in my response to Jill. Making general assertions about local policies, programs and how tax dollars are being spent is easy and, I think, often presented in a self-serving manner on this blog. Sure people distrust higher and larger levels of government BECAUSE they are so bureaucratic and remote, but here in small town Duvall--where you can know our elected officials on a first name basis and speak your mind into the public record twice a month--it's intellectually lazy to equate your Council with the federal government. That sentiment permeates most of the comments in this blog and, in my view, is a reflection of TP's attitude. Too often GR appears to be just a forum for malcontents who are only interested in validation of their own political beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather collect the facts and try to better understand the world, how about you? Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeletePerhaps I can inform you about a few things your source probably wont mention about how our local government is like the federal government.
They have raised fees and taxes during an economic down turn, they failed to follow their own policies regarding funding of community events prompting an audit from the State Auditor, they are interesting in reshaping government to better fit the environmentalist movement (see Council Member Walkers proposal linked at the top of the blog) and they routinely violate the laws regarding public request for information.
I know all the council members by first name and I like them all on a social basis. However I do not like some of their actions and I feel it is my obligation to the rest of the community to inform them of the times when their government does not act in their best interest.
I would suggest if you would like to gather facts to better understand the world, a great place to start would be to actually attend the council meetings where you can get this information first hand rather than have it filtered for you by your source.
Ralph, If you want corroborating evidence for any of my above statement please email me at goneright@live.com and I will forward you all the documentation. I assume that with your desire for truth and facts I should hear from you within the next few days.
Thanks for reading.
Thomas
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteBy the way here is a challenge for you. Comment without personally attacking anyone. It would be a nice change.
Thanks
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteThank you for providing more information on the examples I gave. But the point isn't whether these additional programs, activities and positions worthwhile. The point of this post is that the city of Duvall is proposing new things to fund (through grants or city funds, doesn't matter it's all taxpayer money) while Gov Gregoire has recognized that existing programs must be cut and nothing new will be funded, worthwhile or not.
Thomas,
I don't feel attacked. I really appreciate the additional information Ralph provided. This is a great discussion! Now I'd like to see Ralph do a guest post on how much government should control (or stay out of) our lives.
Jill
Jill,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your concern but I am well aware that because I have chosen to speak out that i should get some criticism. I do not mind that Ralph chooses to lower the quality of his argument by personally attack me.
My concern is for those who are commenting. Ralph has repeatedly spoken of them with disdain and he tends to try to prove his position by attempting to put others in a poor light.
I will gladly take Ralph's criticism but I do not feel that it is appropriate for him to use my blog as a place to personally attack anyone.
Hope that clears up that issue a little.
Thomas
TP, I see that you have chosen to disregard the specifics I took the trouble to research on each of the three spending issues raised by Jill, nor did you bother to present any factual arguments to the contrary. (All this information, by the way, can be confirmed by reviewing discussions during recent Council meetings in the public archives provided on the city's website.) Apparently none of the underlying facts on these issues suites the political beliefs you are striving to promote to your readers. Instead you go right back to the usual generalized rhetoric you use to validate your facile proposition that "our local government is like the federal government" when in fact someone has the audacity to argue persuasively that it is not.
ReplyDeleteThen you try to divert me from the open discussion of local issues on your blog --excuse me, but I thought that is what you are (supposedly) trying to encourage--with the suggestion of further individual exchange via e-mail. Are you afraid to debate someone who challenges your positions in front of your audience? Are you that insecure? If so, it would confirm my initial comment. Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteI did not address those issues because I did not bring them up. Jill was discussing them not me. If you want my comments on it I can provide them to you.
The reason I suggested that you email was so I could send you the documentation that I referenced.
If there was a enough interest I could post these items here so you can maintain the safety of your anonymity. I specifically set the setting of the blog to allow anonymous posting so those who do not want to put their name on their posts would be saved the same type of attacks that I am constantly a victim of.
For all I know you name is not Ralph. It could be John, Jacob, Jingleheimer, or Schmitt. You are free to use whatever name you like and I will usually allow the posts to be put on here.
I welcome the discussion of ideas and I am glad that you are willing to discuss them. But you do have to realize that you are not the only reader of this blog. And while this particular post has made you very vocal I do have to be concerned about the other readers as well and not all of them are interested in reading all the documentation I have about the issues I raise here.
Jill, your comments were posted just after I finished sending a response to Thomas' discrediting of my research into the issues you raised. I AM MOST IMPRESSED that you have an open mind to gathering further information to better understand local issues. My proposition has been that too many followers of this blog are simply content to be fed what supports their political cynicism, but both you and Bart have demonstrated yourselves to be thoughtful participants in a constructive discussion. You have my respect and thanks. Ralph
ReplyDeleteSo I am new to the blog and it seems to me that Ralph is asking other people to live up to a standard that he doesn't live up to.
ReplyDeleteHe chastised Thomas for not addressing the point he made but then he simply dismissed Thomas' points and didn't respond to any of them.
As an outside observer who doesn't quite know all the dynamics here it just seems intellectually dishonest on his part.
Thomas,
I would like to see the documentation. Can I email you and get a copy?
Thanks
Jan
Jan,
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. Email me at goneright@live.com and I will forward you copies of what I have.
Thanks for reading.
Thomas
So to get back to the topic of the post.
ReplyDeleteI am glad that the Governor has finally decided that government can't provide everything for everyone. It is refreshing that she finally realized that private industry generally does a more efficient job at almost every endeavor compared to it government counterpart.
Whats next? A democrat deciding that tax cuts are are beneficial to the economy? Oh wait the President just announced that they were.
I agree that it is high time that the government, at any level, realizes that there are a finite number of dollars and that they have to be spend based on priorities. It really is good to see that Gov. Gregoire finally had this epiphany.
ReplyDeleteI feel like I should point out that we, the American people in general, share a portion of the blame for the current financial situation. We voted these people into office, and we keep some of them there for a very long time. We even vote for tax increases, bonds, etc that will benefit us personally. We let our government link bills together so that some pet project gets approved in order to get the necessary votes on another bill.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to encourage everyone to take a step back and look at the details of each and every ballot that comes before us. Ask questions, dig deeper into what will and won't be covered. What is the true cost of the proposed legislation?
As an example, I've heard lots of people say 'tax the rich and make them pay for (insert topic of choice)'. Who defines who the rich are? I saw a news article recently that indicated that many of the 'rich' already pay nearly 50% in taxes because of the income bracket they fall in. Just how much more in taxes do the 'rich' need to pay before they cover everyone else?
When we stand to gain something from a proposed intiative it is easy to just say yes, do it. When we stand to lose something, it's easy to say no, don't do it. Do we as a country have the moral and ethical integrity to say no to something that would benefit us, or to agree to something that would cost us because we believe the cost is too high?
I found a very enlightening website that outlines the veru point that Bart has discussed. http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
ReplyDeleteThe interesting facts I saw on Table 1 was that top 1% of wage earners pay 22% of the federal tax burden. The top 10% pay 48% of the federal tax burden. The top 50% pay 87% of the taxes. The bottom 50% pay 12%.
Regardless of how you look at equality, fairness, or social justice it seems to me that the "rich" are paying more than their fair share.
Bart is right that we to often vote for or against something because we it either benefits or doesnt affect us. We need to be better at looking at the overall effect of the issues we vote on and the candidates we vote for.
We have voted in the elected officials we have. Perhaps it is time to remedy that situation.
Thanks Thomas - that's the article I read - I just couldn't find the link again :D
ReplyDeleteI found Jill's open-minded attitude so refreshing and positive that it offers me the opportunity to exit the conversation on a constructive note. I see that Thomas has ignored my positive comment directed to her as well as her interest in suggesting I do a guest post. So be it, it's his blog of course. But I would note that my participation has generated 10-fold the number of comments as some recent posts. the blog seems to be getting a bit stale for many.
ReplyDeleteSince I am in full agreement with those of you who wish to limit the role and expense to taxpayers of all levels of government, why not have discussion drilling down to exactly WHO at Duvall city hall is responsible for the majority of proposed tax-funded projects? Thomas, isn't that the bottom line of what your blog is meant to be about???
I have some insightful information on this topic, but would like to read what the regular commenters would have to say first. Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteWOW! Talk about ego. Way to go, you have exceeded even my expectations on your narcisism. You are right, you are the best thing that has ever happened to this blog. what did we do without you?
If you want to talk more email me. I can't force your drivel on the rest of my readers anymore.
I got to say that that was the most shameless display of self promotion I have ever seen. It is too bad that Ralph could not get passed his own importance to actually contribute productively.
ReplyDeleteAnd I will put my real name to that.
Todd
Thomas be honest, more like dueling egos between you and Ralph. Why else would you dismiss every fact and idea he offered?
ReplyDeleteDo you think that makes you look credible? Geri
Geri,
ReplyDeleteI absolutely have an ego. Ask anyone who knows me. Also I am honest in my approach. I would suggest you re read the post above. You will see that I did not address Ralph's points because he made them in response to someone else.
And he only responded to one of my questions after asking him 3 times. I think my crediblity is just fine and would stand up to scrutiny if you were to read the posts without having made up your mind first.
Enjoy the anonymity everyone...
I am reminded of a quote From Abraham Lincoln.
ReplyDelete"If I were to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other buisness. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing it to the end. If the end brings me out on the right, then what is said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference."